Doctor Who - The Doctor's Daughter
After a run of enjoyable but traditional stories, Series Four has decided to stretch its wings, tasking the Doctor with impressing his philosophy of life upon a newborn killing machine. Given the old-school approach that the present run of the programme has adopted, viewers might be forgiven for wondering how it would approach more controversial material, yet Jenny’s introduction is remarkably assured. However, weaknesses in the rest of the episode condemn it to be this year’s first misfire.
Since the title of the story was announced, most speculation has understandably focussed on the extent to which its guest character would live up to her billing. It’s been clearly stated in the new series that the Doctor enjoyed an intuitive connection to the rest of his species. With the surprise discovery of his previously referred-to child ruled out, some compromise is obviously called for. Stephen Greenhorn prioritises a biological connection to the Doctor over an emotional one, opting to make Jenny a test tube baby instead of a Miranda-style adoption. Her rapid introduction may feel a little contrived, but the focus of the story is on her emotional origins, rather than biological nature. What causes more harm to the piece is manner in which Jenny’s eventual separation from the Doctor is engineered. Her presence in the TARDIS would have completely overshadowed Donna’s story, but it’s rather unfortunate that for a few minutes the episode looks as if it has decided to back away from the ongoing element introduced. Jenny’s revival is welcome, albeit rather confusing; presumably she benefited from the same newly-incarnated healing effect that allowed the Doctor to regrow his hand in The Christmas Invasion. Dalek, The Age of Steel and The Lazarus Experiment all played key parts in their series’ story arcs, and it’s inconceivable that the last of the Time Ladies won’t return in time for episode thirteen.
A secondary role of the sixth episode, making explicit the theme of each series, is less often remarked on. After last year’s preoccupation with humanity and the characteristics of our species, Series Four appears to be taking a more introverted approach, exploring and challenging the Doctor’s morality. Partners In Crime showed the Time Lord utterly within his comfort zone, presenting him with a benign monster and an enemy who he could try to save from her own shortcomings. This was thrust into sharp contrast by the story that followed it, with the Doctor a prisoner of the both the laws of time and the trauma of his past. After the anti-slavery respite of Planet Of The Ood, the series centred in on the Doctor’s pacifism, by contrasting him with both General Staal and Colonel Mace. Greenhorn builds on Raynor’s work, again raising the issue of whether the Doctor is a hypocrite, being no less a warrior just because he doesn’t carry a gun, and frequently relying on those who do. This is clearly a preoccupation of the series’ writers- Paul Cornell has spoken of the difficulty of using the Doctor in a real-world setting, while Steven Moffatt has commented on the character’s need for a Brigadier or Captain Jack to keep the enemy busy while he tinkers in his lab. For all our hero’s bluster last week in UNIT’s mobile HQ, he was powerless to disperse the Sontarans’ chemical weapon until the military’s offensive had cleared his path into the ATMOS factory. The examination of the Doctor’s morality will probably continue throughout the season, but The Poison Sky left the particular issue of his attitude to warfare and weapons in urgent need of attention.
Greenhorn deserves credit for being able to partly resolve this problem, using two different aspects of his story to show what makes the Doctor a pacifist hero. The more obvious of the two devices is at the end of the episode, where the Doctor is briefly seized by the impulse to kill Cobb in revenge for Jenny’s murder. Tennant’s performance is superb here, brilliantly conveying the Time Lord’s struggle to master his rage. In the end, the Doctor stays true to his principles, and restrains himself from acting out of malice or bloodlust. Refusing to succumb to these base emotions is one of the things that distinguishes the Doctor, and Greenhorn provides a textbook illustration of this quality. His other method of exonerating the Doctor is more subtle, and embodied in the story’s setting. One of the first things we learn about Messaline is that its inhabitants are brainwashed from birth to wage war. In contrast to Jenny, the Doctor cannot understand this idea of instinctive loyalty. When the Doctor fights, he does so as the ultimate outsider, arriving on each world an innocent, before actively choosing to give help to those he feels are in need of it. He’s not unwilling to take sides, but never without being able to see both aspects of an argument- here, he works for the benefit of the Hath as well as the humans.
A silent species is an intriguing concept, but the lack of screen time available means that Greenhorn does not have room to explore the implications of this idea. The Hath’s group cuddle of Martha weakens their credibility as soldiers, and living in the same conditions as the human forces deprives their species of any interesting or memorable features. The lack of individual characterisation weakens the impact of Peck’s death, making Freema Agyeman’s reaction look rather overwrought, and it’s telling that the Hath play virtually no part in the story’s climax. Poor production values hamper the story further, with the low-cost blowtorch guns being particular unconvincing, while the bright lighting of many areas removes much of the atmosphere from the story’s underground setting. However, the design team deserves praise for the attention to detail they lavish on many aspects of the story. Jenny’s dark green top and black trousers are a very pointed reference to the battle-hardened ninth Doctor’s mode of dress, while the roundels on the interior of her shuttlecraft are another nice touch.
The story’s failure stems from its inability to find a compelling plot on which to hang its ideas. Messaline is a depressing planet, of which we learn nothing for the majority of the episode. What’s intriguing is the way the setting breaks Russell T Davies’ own rules for the programme. The showrunner has always taken pains to emphasis the importance of a human-interest angle to the worlds the Doctor visits, but the two factions presented here are dangerously close to his oft-quoted example of “the Zogs having trouble with the Zog-monster”. Cobb’s forces are human in name alone. Despite the derelict theatre in which they live, there’s not a single trace of culture or fun in their lives. Reproducing by machines and embracing eternal war, there is no noticeable difference between the human residents of Messaline and the Sontarans which the Doctor defeated last week, and his determination to end the conflict is more rooted in a desire to thwart Cobb’s dreams of conquest than any altruistic impulse towards those he’s met. The central mystery that unfolds during the course of the episode, of the numbers etched onto the walls of the complex, falls disappointingly flat, due to the rather unlikely nature of its solution.
Although a twist on such a stock sci-fi setting is to be welcomed, the logistics of the claim that the war has only been waged for a week severely challenge the audience’s suspension of disbelief. We meet humans of varying generations during the course of the episode, and the story does not provide any reason for the colonists’ aging being accelerated by the conditions they are under. Given the complete education provided by the progenitor machines, it is rather surprising that the nature of the colonists’ mission could be so quickly obscured. Even accepting the scenario as presented, it has no bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the story. The Source could have been sat at the heart of the ship for years before the Doctor arrived to activate it, and the outcome would have been the same. The moment when Donna’s experience of administration leads her to the solution would have been a nice touch, had not almost exactly the same event occurred in the previous story. There’s a clumsy and forced nature to several aspects of the plot, typified by the Doctor’s pre credits acknowledgment of Jenny as his daughter, before he spends the first half of the episode denying her that very status.
The root of the problem lies in the story’s attempt to repeat the success of Utopia. Once again, a deliberately retro setting is created as a backdrop for some intense personal drama for the Doctor, with the scenario eventually regarded as a mere prompt for the character it introduces. The difficulty here is that while the re-emergence of the Master was a note-perfect exercise in building up tension, Jenny’s story actually becomes less dramatic she comes round to her father’s way of thinking. Given the startling contribution the story makes to the series’ mythos, it’s a curiously unimaginative affair.
Second Opinion
We may as well deal with the flaws first, because God knows there are plenty to find in this bizarre slice of series four hokum. The set-up is almost entirely senseless, the final revelation highly questionable, the dialogue sometimes painfully hackneyed, and the plotting only slightly less linear than writer Stephen Greenhorn's previous straight-line episode, The Lazarus Experiment.
Instant cloning with instant figure-hugging clothing. Clunky talk of 'generations' to avoid mentioning a period of time ("I've waited all my life" is a particularly dumb expression in retrospect). A war begun because someone forgot to appoint a second in command...this whole thing is a mess.
The Doctor's Daughter is a pig of an episode when going through the motions of its supposed A story. Perfunctory things happen - Martha's capture, the death of Peck the Hath (seriously, they gave a character who can't speak plosives that name), Cobb's final shot - but they have no weight, and no style. Things 'just happen'. The journey of the episode is from point A - headquarters - to B - 'The Source'. It's a back-of-a-fag-packet outline.
It also carries a fumbled religious metaphor...the Garden of Eden arrives at the end of the seventh day, after which the child of the virgin birth is resurrected. But it's clunkily handled, and doesn't hang together if you give more than a moment's thought. (If Jenny's Christ, shouldn't SHE be bringing the two sides together in peace?)
But the point is in the title, as it usually is with Doctor Who. While some bemoaned the double-bluff of the promotion, expecting an actual long-lost daughter, it's the very bright-eyed freshness of Georgia Moffett's Jenny that makes her work. How tedious it would have been to re-run Rose's Daddy issues!
The sheer joy of accompanying the Doctor on his adventures is a key part of the Davies mission statement. The mildly-meta notion that this lifestyle is aspirational has payed dividends over the last few years, and who better to want to follow in the Time Lord's footsteps than his own offspring?
So while one can certainly argue that instant-daughter-in-a-can is essentially what the Doctor gets with every young, female companion, here Davies (most likely, it feels like rewrite work) uses the interesting conflict of an innocent warrior to ask questions of his leading man that the usual TARDIS-mates couldn't ask. Questioning how someone who parades his pacifism can also define himself as a defeater of baddies, as slayer of monsters, is a discussion as good as anything the series has done.
It's an overdue bit of business, frankly, since series four has left the Doctor to coast a little. With the Time War now feeling a long way behind he's been short on character work. Where The Doctor's Daughter begins to reclaim points is in its desire to move the focus back to the title character.
So while Martha speaking in nonsense lines like "I think I just started a war" - when a) the war never stopped, and b) she did nothing but watch as a map revealed new areas - and people continue to create rooms full of lasers rather than just putting an entire grid of them across a doorway, redemption comes from good performances of the more infrequent textured material.
Director Alice Troughton - who put in decent work on Torchwood's first year with two of the better stories, Out of Time and Small Worlds - makes the best of what she's given...though what she's given in this case is far too few extras to convincingly create an army. But the sets/locations (and, for that matter, the aliens) are awash with bright colours, which is a brave old-Who style choice. And there's some decent stuff going on with the score once we've got past the initial chaos in the TARDIS.
As much as anything else it's the conclusion that lets the side down. Jenny's return has some cheery punch, but it's hampered by the same perfunctory storytelling. Her death was guaranteed from the second she was invited onboard the TARDIS - and for a show smart enough to know that viewers would be fooled by the expectations of the episode promotion, that's unforgivable - and then Donna goes and says something to Martha about how she plans to travel with that man forever. Now, I'm enjoying Tate's role in the series, but who didn't read that as a 'something bad's coming to kick me off the show' set-up?
So, for that reason, plus the fumbling of just how, exactly, Jenny came back to life - Spock-like terraformy goodness seems to be indicated, but it's never stated clearly in an episode that, otherwise, never stops having characters state the bleeding obvious - it's a middle-of-the-road conclusion. Too many mistakes to praise highly, and too many good bits to dismiss.
About this entry
- By Julian Hazeldine
- Posted on Monday, May 19 2008 @ 1:28 pm
- Categorised in TV, Review
- Tagged with doctor who
- 78 comments
On the subject of the 'silent' Hath - there seems to be some post-production simplifying going on, likely caused by confusion over the TARDIS's translation trickery. Martha eventually seems to end up speaking Hathish - she calls Peck's name as she sinks - and Confidential showed crew members speaking the Hath's lines out loud, and in English, for the timing.
If the two species were meant to build a colony together, presumably they're able to communicate. (If they couldn't, how did they manage to start a war over the right to command?) I suspect someone spotted a TARDIS translation logic problem late in production and so they opted to slice out the Hath/language content.
By Andrew
May 19, 2008 @ 2:14 pm
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Probably the best thing about this episode, apart from the great and gorgeous Georgia Moffet, was the podcast commentary (with Tennant, Alice Troughton and RTD). It's good to know that it's not just the viewers who have problems with a particular episode. RTD knows how clumsy the episode is and often just comes out with it, even though director Alice Troughton is there with him. You can tell how annoyed he is with the blowtorch guns, although Alice liked them. And they had fucking meetings over the idea of a water-breathing creature drowning, but it still stayed in the ep! They point out the smashing sound that's heard as Peck (I mean, for fuck's sake...) dies, which is the glass of their mask breaking.
So many episodes have been messed up in a similar way, cramming way too much into 45 minutes which results in none of it really meaning a great deal. The emotional moments at the end were NOT earned. We know they CAN be earned in 45 minutes, just look at series 1 & 2 episodes Dalek, Father's Day, TGITFP. They should have cut half of the crap out of The Doctor's Daughter with a very sharp knife. Either that or made it a 2-parter (why don't they just do all 2-parters?? This series I would have done Fires of Pompeii as a 2-parter also and fucked the Ood episode)
By performingmonkey
May 19, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
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See, I do think that most of this material would have sat comfortably in the not-overly-complex Sontaran two-parter. All the cloning and the military themes would still have fit. Leave Martha, insert Jenny...I think you'd have had better shows.
By Andrew
May 19, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
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I thought "The Doctor's Daughter" was terrible; I even went to the extent of rewriting the story in an effort to get rid of all the stupidity and plotholes it contained. If "The Empty Child" was an example of the heights not just New Who but British sci-fi in general can achieve then "The Doctor's Daughter" represented the lows: derivative, poorly-plotted and stupid.
I'll cover it in detail in a later comment, probably cut & paste my comments in another forum which covered most of my problems with the episode in quite good detail. Man, it made me cross.
By Zagrebo
May 19, 2008 @ 8:57 pm
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Okay, these are cut & pasted critiques so forgive me if they don't reference the reviews here and seem a bit out of context at times:
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Just watched it on BBC Three. Absolutely blimmin' TERRIBLE episode.
First off, it teased us all in the trailer last week by pretending that the Doctor had a kid he didn't know about and so having the whole "we suddenly made a sort-of clone" thing at the start felt like being cheated; although at least the episode started as it meant to go on. Half the things that happened in the story had no real purpose or reason other than to advance the plot. The creation of the daughter for example, had no real reasoning nor logic behind it. The imprisoning of said daughter even though she was loyal was nothing more than a plot device to make sure the doctor could win her to his side (which wouldn't have happened if she'd joined the other soldiers making the general's decision even more ridiculous). Martha's joining the Haath didn't really seem to serve any purpose other than to tell us they weren't evil monsters and to give us some excellent above-ground alien planet-ness (the highlight of the episode) and the Haath's death felt gratuitous and the unnecessary crowbarring-in of emotional drama. The whole "it's only been seven days" thing was a great revelation until you realised it made no sense whatsoever. So all those soldiers - all of them - none had lived longer than six days or so despite the "war" (ha!) not being terribly intense from what we saw? And the general - he looked like he'd been around longer than seven days given the cloning process created perfect physical specimens in their 20s.
The "war" was also a bit feeble. How big was this colony ship and how efficient were their birthing machines? Both sides seemed to have about twenty men (I was tutting at this all through - it was typical old-Who budgetry constraints trying to punch above its weight; if you've only got the money for a couple of squads fighting in some tunnels then script it as a couple of squads fighting in some tunnels dag nammit!).
Oh, and *that* ending. First off, it was clear something was going to happen to Dr Jr after the Doctor offered to take her on the TARDIS. Then, again without any good reason, the general shoots her (perhaps he was just bonkers, because he seemed to do a lot of things in the episode that MADE NO SENSE) to make sure she can't go. Then I sat there thinking "but she's a Timelord/lady, she'll regenerate" then the Dr says "Oh, no, she can't because she's too much like me" (?!) then they all leave and she DOES regenerate but because the actress had clearly been signed-up for the spin-off that they unsubtly plugged at the end she doesn't actually change.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. As a piece of drama and storytelling this failed miserably. The only positive is that next week's episode looks like it could be absolutely terrific.
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And here was the rewriting of the episode I insisted on doing:
Okay, because I always do this with Bad Television here's the way this episode could have been saved:
*All the actors playing the humans should have been young; this would have made the birthing method of reproduction make more sense.
*The battles should have been more intense with a high body count on both sides. This would have increased the sense of tragedy, meant the revelation made more sense and heightened the impact of the overall message.
*The fact that this was a race war and therefore utterly pointless and unnecessary should have been made much more of.
*A full explanation should have been given for using the Doctor to make a new soldier. To be honest, I can't think of one so it would have been better if the Doctor had somehow got his hand "caught" in the machine whilst examining it and the whole thing was accidental.
*Martha's being captured by the Hath should have been done better. They should have been much much more hostile towards her at the start (she looks like the enemy, after all) with her having to win their confidence more quickly. Her journey with her Hath friend should have had more purpose (perhaps them helping the doctor later) and the Hath should have lived.
*The skeletal/withered remains of Hath and Humans should have been scattered around the tunnels (esp. at the start). This would hammer-home the idea that this has been an intensive war thus strengthening the overall message and allowing Tennant to be a bit more moralistic and moody.
*Some sort of reasoning for the General's shooting of Jenny should have been given. It simply made no sense, especially as she'd spared his life earlier.
*The "twist" should have been better thought out, perhaps a "war" of only a few weeks or months in order for it to be convincing that anyone there at the start would be dead by now (as per my idea above - the battles are properly intensive).
*Some sort of explanation for the lasers across the tunnel - if you've seen "Galaxy Quest" then I imagine that, like me, you thought of the famous corridor with the pointless hammer-things in it.
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I even had a shot at a better ending:
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As it happens I've just thought up a much better denoument:
Basically, the Hath and Humans on arriving in the chamber with the glowing thingmy display mutual antagonism (basically, fighting would break out but the Doctor stops them and explains what's going on). The ball thingy breaks and the terraforming begins. Now, remember when the Hath started to lay down their weapons? Well, let's say one of them has one slung over his shoulder; as he unslings it the General, assuming from instinct that the Hath is going to open fire raises his gun to respond; Jenny sees this and screams "no!" getting in the way of the bullet and ending up taking it. She falls into the Doctor's arms as the Hath lays down his gun allowing the General to realise the mistake he's made and prompting him to lay down his own weapon as the Doctor repeatedly hisses at him that the Hath was "disarming, he was putting *down* his weapon!". The tragedy is clear - the human-hath mutual paranoia was so bad that even at the moment when no victory could be claimed by either side it still leads to a death.
Am I a frustrated screenwriter? Yes, funnily enough.
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Sorry for the super-long comment
By Zagrebo
May 19, 2008 @ 9:08 pm
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> it would have been better if the Doctor had somehow got his hand "caught" in the machine whilst examining it and the whole thing was accidental.
I won't go through the whole thing, and I don't disagree with ALL of what you've said, but just to say - I think this is a horrible idea!
By Andrew
May 19, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
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>it teased us all in the trailer last week by pretending that the Doctor had a kid he didn't know about and so having the whole "we suddenly made a sort-of clone" thing at the start felt like being cheated
I've got to say, if you took that trailer at face value, then you DESERVED to be fooled.
>The skeletal/withered remains of Hath and Humans should have been scattered around the tunnels (esp. at the start)
Erm, just because they die more quickly, it doesn't mean that all other aspects of nature (i.e. decomposition) accelerate as well...
>Then, again without any good reason, the general shoots her (perhaps he was just bonkers, because he seemed to do a lot of things in the episode that MADE NO SENSE)... Some sort of reasoning for the General's shooting of Jenny should have been given
I thought he was trying to shoot the Doctor? It was your classic "innocent caught in the crossfire" type deely. At least, that's how I remember it, and how it seemed to me - I could be wrong...
By Seb
May 19, 2008 @ 11:12 pm
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[i]I won't go through the whole thing, and I don't disagree with ALL of what you've said, but just to say - I think this is a horrible idea![/i]
I know, it was very much an off-the-top-of-my-head solution for the Doctor's having been cloned. I just couldn't buy the reasoning that they'd clone from a complete stranger just for the hell of it which seemed to be the case in the episode itself. It was made even more absurd when General Cobb insisted on imprisoning the new soldier in spite of her having demonstrated her loyalty which provided nothing but an opportunity for the Doctor to turn him over to her way of thinking.
Just a stupid, stupid episode on so many levels.
By Zagrebo
May 20, 2008 @ 10:41 am
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"I've got to say, if you took that trailer at face value, then you DESERVED to be fooled."
Why, exactly? The trailer hinted that the Doctor might have unknown offspring; which would be an entirely believeable possibility and open the doors for an exploration of the Doctor's history. Instead they forced the "daughter" into the story in a hamfisted way that didn't really work and failed to deliver on the promise hinted at in the trailer.
"Erm, just because they die more quickly, it doesn't mean that all other aspects of nature (i.e. decomposition) accelerate as well..."
I know, although my idea that the "war" has been raging for months would allow for decomposition. I should just have written "bodies", though, which would have been much more credible. It was a cut & paste job of something I wrote pretty quickly as a way of dealing with the episodes flaws so it was far from perfect.
"I thought he was trying to shoot the Doctor? It was your classic "innocent caught in the crossfire" type deely. At least, that's how I remember it, and how it seemed to me - I could be wrong..."
A few people have said that but it wasn't exactly telegraphed - Cobb made no verbal intent to shoot the Doctor (not realistic, of course, but common in TV drama to establish what's happening - see the "Torchwood" episode with Jim from Neighbours) and I don't recall Jenny positioning herself deliberately between the two to block the bullet. If Cobb did try and shoot the Doctor and killed someone who accidentally got in the way then it doesn't say much for his supposed innate soldiering ability since he should know to shoot only when he has a clear shot and not when some girl is potentially going to wander into the line of fire.
By Zagrebo
May 20, 2008 @ 10:50 am
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Another thing that annoyed me about Cobb is that he was written as an extremely two-dimensional evil villain and yet the actor who played him was actually quite good, managing to suggest that he had some sort of depth which lead to the character's shallowness feeling a bit wrong.
By Zagrebo
May 20, 2008 @ 10:54 am
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I think the point Zagrebo is trying to make about the trailer (and the episode title) is that it was a big source for fan speculation about where she was going to come from which was resolved by sticking his hand in a whizz-o cloning machine for no reason before the credits had even run. We're used to horribly contrived endings in New Who, but horribly contrived beginnings?
Two stars is a star too many for this tat.
By Andy M
May 20, 2008 @ 11:59 am
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Some good news (well, I imagine so)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7411177.stm
By Zagrebo
May 20, 2008 @ 6:27 pm
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> And they had fucking meetings over the idea of a water-breathing creature drowning, but it still stayed in the ep!
I thought the Hath required those suits to filter water through themselves, and could also filter the air around them. It was a way for them to function on land. Without knowing the logic exactly, I was happy to believe that their breathing system was compromised by the suit being completely submerged underwater. Why should the Hath cope any better underwater in those suits than a fish that's wrapped in cling film?
By J Clark
May 21, 2008 @ 11:23 am
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Silly episode - the worst of the series IMO
If Jenny does come back, odds on her "accidentally" killing Donna in the finale?
By Simon
May 21, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
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I think that 'The Doctors Daughter' ep was awesum, & that jenny should get her own spin off show. & 2 all of u that didn't like it or thort it wasn't very good u obviously dont know ur doctor who mythos very well. The reason y Jenny came back 2 life was because she was in the 1st 15 hrs of being 'born' & still had the energy 2 regenerate her heart that had been shot, just like wen the Doctor got his hand cut off & he regrew it "season 1 Christmas special", Jenny is a Timelord & all Timelord abillities apply 2 her. The Doctor simply was 2 grief striken at the thought of loosing her that it would have sliped his mind. Stop trying 2 find faults in the show ur just recking it 4 urself especially wen u dont know wot ur talking about. & anyway its just a frigin TV show & i dont see any of u's making a show thats beta & untill u's do make ur own top rating shows mite wana get a life.
By stonewolfdow
May 21, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
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This is my favourite comment that has ever been posted on here. Do you want to come and write for us?
By Seb
May 21, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
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"I don't see you making a better TV show" is still my favourite telly defence ever.
ACTUALLY I DIRECTED SEVEN EPISODES OF THE WIRE...
By Andy M
May 21, 2008 @ 3:28 pm
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I could make a better show than this by pooing all up in my own face.
By Michael Lacey
May 21, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
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It's like he's a pure, distilled cliché. It's almost beautiful to behold.
By Jonathan Capps
May 21, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
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> I could make a better show than this by pooing all up in my own face.
Better in your face than in ours every fucking week with your comments.
By performingmonkey
May 21, 2008 @ 9:17 pm
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God bless us, every one.
By Phil Reed
May 21, 2008 @ 10:18 pm
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>Stop trying 2 find faults in the show ur just recking it 4 urself especially wen u dont know wot ur talking about
For the record:
Noise To Signal is a effectively a fan/ opinion site for many parts of popular culture. Being a fan of something doesn't imply slavish adoration, but fondness for the article in question and appreciation of its virtues. If you're a fan of a football team, then that doesn't mean you'll think they give a good performance in every game they play- you can still detect variations in quality. However, as a human being with an interest in the subject, you'll probably have the urge to talk about it and compare your view with others. That's why the site was created, and why every article posted here includes a comment section, so you can give your own perspective. Our goal is to give our honest opinions whilst not taking ourselves too seriously.
There's a rather curious contradiction in what you say. You opened your post by expressing your enthusiasm for The Doctor's Daughter, before going on to attack people who have commented on their lack of enjoyment of the story. By your logic, aren't appreciative opinions as invalid as any other? If taking a view on a piece of entertainment is a waste of time, then why do you express hope than Jenny will receive her spin-off? Shouldn't you stoically accept the content that is placed before you?
By Julian Hazeldine
May 21, 2008 @ 11:44 pm
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shouldn't my oppinion, by the same standard, b excepted also & just coz i disagree with their oppinion doesn't mean they shouldn't have 1 even if these so call'd fans wouldn't no Davros from Skaro if u pointed it out 2 them, i just think they should consider researching their POV b4 wrecking the show with opinions base on stuff they haven't research'd or dont know about the mythos of the show, should they know wot they r talking about b4 they try 2 point out the flaws?
By stonewolfdow
May 22, 2008 @ 2:50 pm
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p.s. Seb where u serious about writing 4 u's?
By stonewolfdow
May 22, 2008 @ 2:53 pm
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i ment "shouldn't they know wot they r talking about b4 they try 2 point out the flaws?"
By stonewolfdow
May 22, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
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Don't feed the troll.
By Andy M
May 22, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
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> i ment "shouldn't they know wot they r talking about b4 they try 2 point out the flaws?"
Well, that's cleared that up.
By Jonathan Capps
May 22, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
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>I think that 'The Doctors Daughter' ep was awesum, & that jenny should get her own spin off show. & >2 all of u that didn't like it or thort it wasn't very good u obviously dont know ur doctor who mythos very >well. The reason y Jenny came back 2 life was because she was in the 1st 15 hrs of being 'born' & >still had the energy 2 regenerate her heart that had been shot, just like wen the Doctor got his hand >cut off & he regrew it "season 1 Christmas special", Jenny is a Timelord & all Timelord abillities >apply 2 her. The Doctor simply was 2 grief striken at the thought of loosing her that it would have >sliped his mind. Stop trying 2 find faults in the show ur just recking it 4 urself especially wen u dont >know wot ur talking about. & anyway its just a frigin TV show & i dont see any of u's making a show >thats beta & untill u's do make ur own top rating shows mite wana get a life
Er .. after parsing all that terrible txt sp33k can I make the following points:
1 .In the series ( old and new) its not clear what the difference is between being a Timelord and Gallifreyan - what I mean is that you may be genetically be a Gallifreyian but that does not automatically make you a Timelord .
2. All we saw of Jenny coming back to life was the release of energy much like the post regeneration scenes in the first Xmas special, but she hadn't 'regenerated' at that point from what we could see , so I would say that point is dubious.
3. You go to great lengths to explain/defend this episode (albeit poorly ) and the whys and what's of the programme and then go all 'Get over it , its only a Kids Show' which is a bit of a tricky position to take, really .
4. For the record I've tended to enjoy most of the episodes in a rather uncritical manner , with this one being the same , they don't bear too much scrutiny but are fun . This site provides an interested viewer with a deeper look at the series , and I enjoy reading these reviews - I don't always agree , but I understand the positon they are taking without the need to sound like some kind of idiot fanboi ranting on about how much they hated/loved this episode and how much RTD has wrecked/made the series . They praise what they think is good and scorn what they think doesn't work . Nothing wrong with that at all .
By UruGagarin
May 22, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
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> All we saw of Jenny coming back to life was the release of energy much like the post regeneration scenes in the first Xmas special, but she hadn't 'regenerated' at that point from what we could see , so I would say that point is dubious.
And, as I say, it looks to be the result of the life-giving terraforming process.
By Andrew
May 22, 2008 @ 4:48 pm
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>p.s. Seb where u serious about writing 4 u's?
Yeah, sure, why not. Tell you what, knock together a sample article... then print it off, nail it to a frisbee, and fling it over a rainbow.
By Seb
May 22, 2008 @ 6:43 pm
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Jenny's revival did have a curious visual effect, though - heavily reminiscent of the 'breath' seen in the Christmas Regeneration but clearly using the "breath of God" terraforming device colours. So basically, yeah, I'm happy to accept that she's sufficiently talented a creature to use residual 'life force' energy to recover. Or something.
As it happens I'm just happy the Jenny wasn't simply killed - from the off I felt sure she wouldn't be allowed to stay with the Doctor and as they grew closer seemed like it would cost Jenny's life to keep the series simple. On the flip side, it's a heavy-handed way of separating the two characters. Ho hum.
Re stonewolfdow - Am I the only one that finds the combination of that writing style and the word 'mythos' (correctly used) heartening? There's hope yet.
By Rosti
May 22, 2008 @ 10:59 pm
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>Am I the only one that finds the combination of that writing style and the word 'mythos' (correctly used) heartening?
Or an obvious sign of someone deliberately trolling, of course...
By Seb
May 22, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
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I have reason to believe Jenny's resurrection/regeneration/what the fuckever will be explained with a single line in an upcoming episode. An appearance by her at the end of episode 13 would have made for a great 'What? What??' moment, but obviously that won't happen.
By performingmonkey
May 23, 2008 @ 2:47 am
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Btw, didn't Miss Moffet look fucking gorgeous with red hair in the TDD Confidential?
By performingmonkey
May 23, 2008 @ 2:57 am
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> An appearance by her at the end of episode 13 would have made for a great 'What? What??' moment, but obviously that won't happen.
An unexpected reappearance later in the series, WITHOUT the confusing resurrection scene, would have been far more satisfactory. I was cross enough at the end of Utopia when they decided to use the same "yellow light" technique to regenerate the Master as they did for the Doctor, because the Master's regeneration had nothing to do with absorbing stuff from the time vortex. RTD on Confidential said they wanted to make it look the same so the kids would understand what process was happening, but it made no sense. Having Jenny revive with a similar special-effect has complicated things.
By J Clark
May 23, 2008 @ 11:21 am
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It's only a guess that that effect was because of the Doctor absorbing the time vortex, though. How do you know it's not just what they want regenerations to look like, now? When has it EVER been suggested the effect is due to the absorption?
Why do people feel the need to MAKE UP CONTINUITY and then moan when it's broken?
By Jonathan Capps
May 23, 2008 @ 11:55 am
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I think you'll find make-up continuity is very important. If someone's wearing lipstick in one shot and isn't in the next, you'd notice.
By Ian Symes
May 23, 2008 @ 1:12 pm
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Ba-dum - tch!
By Andrew
May 23, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
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> When has it EVER been suggested the effect is due to the absorption?
In that case they shouldn't have used the exact same yellow light for the Time Vortex and what Rose absorbs, and what subsequently bursts out of the Doctor's arms and neck as he's regenerating. It's not like this is the first regeneration ever, so it's understandable to associate the particular qualities that a regeneration has with the consequences leading to it.
By J Clark
May 23, 2008 @ 4:43 pm
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They use that glowy yellow light/gas for pretty-much everything, though.
By Zagrebo
May 23, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
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Unless, of course, the yellow stuff is used a signifier of "general Time Lord-related stuff". I mean, we don't know how it is that Time Lords can regenerate - it could ALL be an effect of the Vortex...
I'm with Cappsy, though. You're not quibbling contradiction of established in-universe fact. You're quibbling contradiction of your own speculation and interpretation. Which, er, you can't really complain about.
By Seb
May 23, 2008 @ 5:50 pm
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> You're not quibbling contradiction of established in-universe fact. You're quibbling contradiction of your own speculation and interpretation. Which, er, you can't really complain about.
Which is fine as long as there's somebody else out there that says "oh I was thinking the same thing" and I might be able to have a conversation that's less prickly than the one that seems to have been caused. I think the main problem is that I'm in the minority, rather than saying anything particularly stupid or irrelevant. I don't receive all the "established in-universe fact" information so in some ways I'm more like the kind of person that's noticing Bad Wolf is written everywhere and wondering whether it's leading up to something. I said I was "cross" but all I really mean is I'm confused by things seemingly having meaning, and then actually being arbitrary.
> They use that glowy yellow light/gas for pretty-much everything, though.
This I didn't know. Or at least every time I saw it I maybe thought they were connected events as when, during The Christmas Invasion, the newly-regenerated Doctor kept periodically spouting yellow gas. I must have missed the times that would have been more obviously unrelated.
By J Clark
May 23, 2008 @ 6:38 pm
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I'm all for dissing of the portrayal of Jenny's revival, because it was so messy as a piece of storytelling. The light may have been green-and-yellow rather than just yellow, but between the colour choice, the rebirth and the exhaling it clearly sat too close to the events of Parting of the Ways/The Christmas Invasion. People, including myself, were confused.
But clarity of storytelling is everything, and nobody was baffled by the Master regenerating. I don't think anyone thought 'Oh, he's absorbed the same stuff the Doctor did, but off-camera, between being shot and transforming'. Young and old, they got one message, pure and simple: he's a Time Lord, and he's regenerating.
Still, I say that, but clearly one person WAS confused by the Master's change. But I honestly think you have to file that alongside people who saw the ending of Planet of the Apes and said "Oh, so the Statue of Liberty was blown off of Earth and crash landed on the ape planet." Once a minority falls below a certain size, you have to let them go and tell your story the smart way.
By Andrew
May 23, 2008 @ 7:20 pm
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> Unless, of course, the yellow stuff is used a signifier of "general Time Lord-related stuff".
It's the visual equivalent of the 'President Flavia' theme.
By performingmonkey
May 24, 2008 @ 12:38 am
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> But I honestly think you have to file that alongside people who saw the ending of Planet of the Apes and said "Oh, so the Statue of Liberty was blown off of Earth and crash landed on the ape planet." Once a minority falls below a certain size, you have to let them go and tell your story the smart way.
Why are you being so hostile? Why can't I just wish the Master had been given a kind of regeneration that didn't imitate so exactly that of the Doctor's, which had particular circumstances, without this "you're clearly a moron, then" stuff?
By J Clark
May 24, 2008 @ 2:31 am
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> Why are you being so hostile?
Um...that wasn't hostile. That IS a conclusion Apes viewers could have had; you don't need to be a moron to think it. Just think along different lines to the majority. Which, as you've pointed out, you do - you're in a minority that found the Master's transformation illogical.
Sure, they could have sacrificed the storytelling to change the effect. But better a majority are left with full understanding than add crass exposition dialogue over a visceral scene.
By Andrew
May 24, 2008 @ 4:03 am
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The Masters regeneration was a bit more colourful, wasnt it? It wasnt as yellow.
By Michael Lacey
May 24, 2008 @ 4:12 am
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> you don't need to be a moron to think it.
Riiiiiiiight...
By performingmonkey
May 24, 2008 @ 7:07 am
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Damn dirty apes.
By Rosti
May 24, 2008 @ 2:42 pm
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> The Masters regeneration was a bit more colourful, wasnt it? It wasnt as yellow.
You're right, actually - it uses the 'shape' of the Eccleston/Tennant change, but looking at the vid there's a lot more more colour to it:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2h8jg_XdOc
By Andrew
May 24, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
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The thing is, the show has never had two regenerations so close to one-another before. That's why they all look different - different eras, different production crews, different available technology, different ways of experimenting. I've NEVER interpreted there as being an in-story reason for them all looking different - I'd always assumed the opposite, that they should look the SAME. So when you get a production team who get the chance to do more than one, it's only natural that they'd have them along similar lines.
By Seb
May 24, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
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> I've NEVER interpreted there as being an in-story reason for them all looking different
Absolutely. Different teams, eras, budgets and available FX. We accept that we're looking at something that has been 'authored'.
I mean, there's probably a discussion somewhere about the in-fiction reasons why we've encountered a new breed of Sontarans who have genetically developed the ability for lip-synch...but you really shouldn't need it. (Actually didn't Trek do this with Klingons or something?)
By Andrew
May 24, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
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Which regeneration is it when Doctor Who starts seeing swirling faces yelling at him? That ones pretty stupid.
By Michael Lacey
May 24, 2008 @ 9:07 pm
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>Actually didn't Trek do this with Klingons or something?
Yup. According to Worf in DS9 it's something the Klingons "do not discuss with outsiders". Honestly, taking a nice big inconsistency and making it a joke at the show's expense is far nicer in my opinion than 'properly' explaining it, even if the Enterprise version of events was quite enjoyable.
By Rosti
May 24, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
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>Honestly, taking a nice big inconsistency and making it a joke at the show's expense is far nicer in my opinion than 'properly' explaining it
I'm keen on this, too...especially when it's something that can't be explained to anyone's satisfaction without launching into some extended cockamamie stream of technobabble that enriches nobody for having heard it.
Pointing out an "inconsistency" is usually enough--it doesn't always need an explanation. All it does is clue you into the fact that the writers aren't so stupid that they don't realize it themselves, but they have better things to write about.
By Phil
May 24, 2008 @ 9:50 pm
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>Honestly, taking a nice big inconsistency and making it a joke at the show's expense is far nicer in my opinion than 'properly' explaining it
Oh, I agree. Not being any kind of Trek fan I didn't know that's how it was handled. I must have picked up a reference to the reference, but not the context and handling - which I guess I assumed was 'serious', rather than a throwaway reference.
By Andrew
May 24, 2008 @ 10:15 pm
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> Which regeneration is it when Doctor Who starts seeing swirling faces yelling at him? That ones pretty stupid.
That's Peter Davison into Colin Baker. Features a cackling Master saying "Die, Doctor! Die, Doctor!" The director said that he was inspired to try for a visual version of the end of the Beatles' A Day in the Life, with the accumulating orchestra and the sudden stop and final chord. It's a good idea in theory but they didn't have the time or money to really reach the climax they were going for.
By J Clark
May 25, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
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Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnH5vCP483A
By J Clark
May 25, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
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did u guys know that the doctor in this clip (the 1 that dies not the new regenerated 1) is the actual father of Georgia Moffett, the chick that plays the doctors daughter, i think thats pretty cool. thats cool Seb didn't think u were serious i would have declined anyway coz i dont have the time.
By stonewolfdow
May 25, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
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Oh yeah, it's off Caves of Androzani, isn't it? Best Who Ever, despite the shoddy regeneration.
By Michael Lacey
May 25, 2008 @ 7:58 pm
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did u guys know that the other doctor in this clip (the new 1 not the 1 that died) is a massive racist, i think thats pretty horrible.
By wolfstonedow
May 26, 2008 @ 1:49 am
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You were expecting someone else?
By performingmonkey
May 26, 2008 @ 4:45 am
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> Oh yeah, it's off Caves of Androzani, isn't it? Best Who Ever, despite the shoddy regeneration.
It's a very good series, but the Doctor's new face and attitude left me sobbing for a good few days afterwards when I was young. The costume he acquired for the next series (after wearing Peter Davison's cricket whites for an entire story) never helped to endear him to me.
> did u guys know that the other doctor in this clip (the new 1 not the 1 that died) is a massive racist
Citation needed.
By J Clark
May 27, 2008 @ 12:40 am
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by the way 'wolfstonedow' is not me.
By stonewolfdow
May 27, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
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Yes it is.
By wolfstonedow
May 27, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
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>>by the way 'wolfstonedow' is not me.
> Yes it is.
Nobody cares, if that helps.
By J Clark
May 27, 2008 @ 8:54 pm
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Yes they do.
By J Clark
May 27, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
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Shut up!
By J Clark
May 27, 2008 @ 11:05 pm
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>>Yes they do.
>Shut up!
Well done.
By J Clark
May 28, 2008 @ 12:22 am
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Things are really going to the dogs around here.
By performingmonkey
May 28, 2008 @ 1:59 am
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Things are really going to the monkeys around here.
By performingdog
May 28, 2008 @ 2:05 am
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Meta!
By Rosti
May 28, 2008 @ 2:41 am
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> I wondered about The Doctor’s regeneration on following River’s comments too. She suggests he is a lot younger than when she knew. Does this mean that Tenant will remain as the Doctor for longer than has been suggested?
I reckon that she meets/knows a later incarnation of the Doctor, and take it as an indication that the production team might be considering an older actor to take the part when Tennant leaves. She recognises the Doctor by his eyes, and comments on his youth. Either this or Tennant's Doctor will age noticeably over the next couple of series (either physically or spiritually or both) for some reason or other. Perhaps this is just because I've this week seen Tom Baker's Doctor with long white hair and beard in The Leisure Hive, though.
Sorry for replying to a G&T post here, by the way, but it seems to be "what people do" when they aren't registered there.
I loved Silence in the Library, for what it's worth. I hope part 2 resolves all the promise well - the trailer has left me going "what the...?" though at the sight of the Doctor shooting through the vortex sans TARDIS.
By J Clark
June 01, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
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People keep suggesting that Alex Kingston might be Rose, Martha, Romana and other people from the Doctor's past. How are these suggestions married with the assertion that the Doctor has not met Alex Kinston's character YET? Are people just trying to think of someone that is previously known to the Doctor but not recognisable as Kingston, or is there actually some temporal logic behind these suggestions that aren't clear to me?
I think part of the interest in the situation is that the Doctor is unable to respond comfortably to this character that knows him, but I don't think this is because it's a character WE already know. It unhinges him in a way that we've not encountered yet - The Doctor for once isn't able to be confident that he holds knowledge that everybody else doesn't have, because there's somebody who knows better not the situation they're dealing with, but HIM and his future. It's good and I don't think the importance of the mystery is in who this person is - we don't know yet because we've not met her yet.
By J Clark
June 01, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
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>Sorry for replying to a G&T post here, by the way, but it seems to be "what people do" when they aren't registered there.
Oh, for crying out loud. The Doctor Who discussion is in the G&T FORUM. You know what a forum is, yes? Those places where more often than not you have to register to post? The comments thing may be one issue, but don't make out like we're doing something abnormal by asking people to register to use our discussion forum.
NTS and G&T are two DIFFERENT sites. Please remember that. A lot of G&T users don't come anywhere near NTS, so if you want to continue a discussion that's on there, please do it ON THERE. Don't bring it over here. If you don't want to register to post on a forum, then don't try and get involved in its conversations. Do you go round responding to Outpost Gallifrey threads on other sites?
By Seb Patrick
June 01, 2008 @ 3:58 pm
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I don't go around and do anything like that. I was only following a lead that I saw somebody else taking and thought it was accepted to do so. I'm sorry.
By J Clark
June 01, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
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Sorry, I didn't mean to overreact. But the "precedent" that's been set is one we're not really keen to encourage - and to be honest, we don't see why people really have a problem with signing up on G&T (and if people do have such a problem, discussing it with us rather than passively-agressively making comments here would be a better way to go about raising it. Not that I'm accusing *you* of that, but it's happened before, and if you're really not the same person as has done this before, then I apologise).
By Seb Patrick
June 01, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
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> Sorry, I didn't mean to overreact
No problem. Thanks for apologising.
By J Clark
June 02, 2008 @ 9:19 pm
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